Best use of Tax Payer money?

Talk anything related to predators.
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Coyote LJ
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Re: Best use of Tax Payer money?

Postby Coyote LJ » Sat Jan 28, 2012 9:13 am

castnshoot wrote:Dave, any thoughts on the Law they just passed in Texas ?


No, not really. It's a different world than here. Those ranches are 100% deeded private land and those ranchers have been using the wildlife on their land as a cash crop for a long time. Guided predator hunts have been going on in Texas forever. This is just another facet of that. But nothing like it exists here.


Shags1 wrote:OK, if fraud is such a concern, how do the folks that put on competitions get around it? I've heard a few different rules about testing for rigor, and body temps, and different things, so why couldn't similar measures be taken to keep people a little more honest?


What in the world does catching cheaters in contest hunts have to do with bounty fraud? A lot of the big contests make the top money winners take lie detector tests. Along with blocking, probing, tagging, separating partners for intense interviews etc. I don't see how any of the methods used to catch cheaters in contests could have any application in preventing bounty fraud though? Makes no sense to me.

Look, if you guys believe that bounties actually work to reduce coyote populations, or that the history of bounties being rampant with fraud hasn't been documented, I'm not going to waste any more of my breath on the subject. These aren't my opinions, they are facts. Easily verified. Do your own research. See if you can find one, single, documented instance of a bounty on coyotes having any impact on the population. The subject HAS been studied in exhaustive detail - the material is out there if you bother to look. Ask anyone who does this stuff for a living - I've talked to a lot of them. Like I said earlier, bounties are purely politically driven and exist only because they are popular - not because they work. You're being fed a line of crap by politicians (huge surprise...). I'm not going to bother pointing out how dishonest they are any more though.

- Dave

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Re: Best use of Tax Payer money?

Postby Shags1 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 7:44 pm

No need to get upset about it. I'm just throwing ideas out there. I'm not saying I think a bounty is the best way or a even a good way. I'm only trying to get people to think about the situation and maybe come up with a better way of doing things. Just a conversation.

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Re: Best use of Tax Payer money?

Postby Coyote LJ » Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:03 am

I'm not upset. Just not interested in continuing to repeat myself :)) .

I would ask you though, when you say a better way of "doing things", exactly what "things" do you mean?

That's one of the problems with discussing coyote control. Most guys I talk to really don't even have a very clear idea exactly what it is they want accomplished. Let alone how best to do it.

Realize, NOTHING, I repeat - NOTHING has EVER worked to actually "control" or lower a coyote population except compound 1080, but it has been banned for a long time now. Without the use of poison, there simply hasn't ever been a successful effort at reducing any coyote population.

Remember, to reduce the population, you have to kill at least 70% of them for at least two or three years in a row. That just isn't realistically possible using traps, snares, calling, air gunning etc.

The only reductions in coyote populations that have occurred since compound 1080 was banned have been from "natural" causes. The wolves around Yellowstone have done a good job at drastically reducing that coyote population. Diseases like mange have done a good job drastically reducing coyote populations in many areas.

So, what is coyote control really all about then? It's about trying to achieve very specific results in very specific areas at very specific times. Taking out all the breeding pairs from in and around a pasture before turning sheep loose in the spring, for instance. That isn't going to lower the coyote population - there will be just as many the following year. But it is removing them from a specific area at a specific time to prevent loss to the rancher when and where his sheep are lambing. That's just one example, but it is basically how coyote control works. Not by even attempting to lower the population, but by removing coyotes either already causing problems or likely to cause problems exactly when and where it is needed.

It is my understanding that the stated goal of the $50 bounty is increased fawn recruitment. Honestly, I can't think of a less effective, more wasteful or just plain STUPID way to spend $1,000,000 on coyote control to increase fawn recruitment than to use it paying bounties.

If the goal is increased fawn survival, then coyotes need to be taken out from very specific areas at very specific times. Obviously, killing them in and around fawning grounds starting a little before, then during and for awhile after fawns are hitting the ground. The methods for most effectively and efficiently doing that will vary according to the terrain, land ownership, coyote density and other variables. But no matter what, it will require killing coyotes at specific times in specific places to be effective.

There is absolutely nothing SPECIFIC about a bounty. History has proven it over and over and over. The only incentive a bounty provides is killing as many coyotes as possible. That means the low hanging fruit. The easiest coyotes. Not any particular coyotes from any particular place at any particular time. Why would anyone work harder than neccessary to collect $50? They don't... But, I can tell you, with a fair amount of certainty, that killing spring and summer breeding pairs of coyotes in the kind of terrain typical of fawning grounds is FAR from easy. Those are some of the hardest coyotes there are for the average recreational caller to kill. Not to mention, very few recreational callers aren't even hunting coyotes at that time of year - most of them have other hobbies they pursue in the warmer months. Killing coyotes in Jan. isn't going to have any effect on fawn predation during June and July. Again, this is something that has been studied and experimented with extensively, there is a ton of evidence to support these ideas.

Okay... There I go, wasting my breath again. After I said I wouldn't. I'll be done now, promise! :))

- Dave

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Re: Best use of Tax Payer money?

Postby spoofman » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:53 pm

perhaps an easier way would be to just go out and shoot as many as we can and not fight in this forum over it! zzz


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