Buying A New Muzzleloader

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GUTPYLZ
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Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by GUTPYLZ » Thu May 21, 2009 4:11 pm

I wanted to get some feedback on Muzzleloaders on what your favorite is. Try not to be bias if you can. I've been looking at the T/C Encore, but after feeling the Traditions, I think they feel the best. I'm looking at the Vortek in a Traditions and wanted to know if anyone had any feedback on them and others.
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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by FrontierGander » Thu May 21, 2009 9:49 pm

check this one out. Ive only owned it for 3 days now, going on 4 actually and i love this rifle. Its the most accurate right out of the box muzzleloader ive bought in the 9+ years ive been muzzleloading. The trigger is sweet!
http://thepowerbeltforum.powerguild.net ... t-t535.htm

I got mine from R&R Arms for $359 + $15 shipping. Grand total of $372.99 to my door! CVA is offering an 18 day shoot it and if you dont like it, send it back with a copy of your recipt for a full refund. I belive they are offering this because they know that once you squeeze the trigger, You wont be sending it back lol

GUTPYLZ
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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by GUTPYLZ » Thu May 21, 2009 10:05 pm

I've held the rifle before and it does feel sweet. The truth is, there sure is a lot of good stuff out on the market today. That was a great post on that forum. Thanks for the info.
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One Must Grow, Not Vegetate."
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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by FrontierGander » Thu May 21, 2009 10:35 pm

you're welcome. Dont rush your decision. You need to just take your time, read up on forums and handle as many muzzleloaders as possible. Once you find the muzzy that fits like a glove and does what you need to do, You're all set. I cant tell you how many muzzleloaders ive gone through over the years. I bought a muzzleloader one day, sold it the next week because i got it to shoot 1 hole groups @ 75 yards and 1" groups @ 100. When you find a muzzleloader like that you get bored with them and sell/trade them off for your next adventure ( Or atleast i do) lol

Muzzleloader A.D.D. maybe?

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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by GUTPYLZ » Fri May 22, 2009 7:39 pm

Looks like I'm not buying Traditions or CVA. Look at this article. I'm buying a Thompson Center Encore Endeavor.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/dangerous_muzzleloaders.htm

Dangerous Muzzleloaders

By Randy Wakeman



In my opinion, far too many people have had their lives destroyed by reportedly using cheap imported muzzleloaders as directed by manufacturer's printed instructions. There are no muzzleloading standards, and there is no governing body on the American muzzleloading scene to effect any semblance of quality control or reasonable safety testing.

According to one attorney, his client is an ex-marine who has been trained for about 13 years on how to clean, load, and fire a muzzle loading rifle. The accident occurred 3 days after he received the rifle as a gift from his daughter. It was a new Traditions .50 caliber inline. The attorney believes he was using the gun as directed by the manufacturer on the date of the accident. The man has lost his right hand as a result of the explosion.

Another attorney's report details how a man purchased a new CVA .50 caliber inline, a package of .50 caliber / 50 grain Hodgdon brand Triple Seven propellant pellets, a package of Winchester brand W209 Primers and a CVA brand .50 caliber Complete Muzzleloading Accessory Outfit at a chain store, according to the receipt. A short while later, one primer was fired per the instructions and then, to sight in the muzzleloader, loaded 3 of the 50 grain pellets, a .50 caliber "PowerBelt" 295 grain hollow point bullet with plastic "sabot" snap-on base and a W209 primer.

He fired the muzzleloader and the barrel exploded. His wife was present at the scene of the accident. She transported him to the hospital ER. This man was in the emergency room within about two hours of his new purchase. Two surgeries have already been performed in an attempt to repair the damage to his hand as a result of the explosion. More are indicated.

In another incident, a different man, with approximately 20-25 years of experience hunting with muzzleloaders / black powder guns, was target shooting on a Saturday with a friend, using his CVA inline. The hospital reports that after being stabilized x-rays were taken which revealed a "large metallic FB with spring located at the angle of the mandible."

In yet another CVA incident, a man with ten years of muzzleloading under his belt was sighting in a new scope on his CVA inline. His brother and nephew were present. After a catastrophic failure, his injuries reportedly consisted of a torn right nostril from the base of the nostril to just below the right eye socket. It took 40-45 stitches to close this wound. His nose and his right cheek bone were broken.

A concerned consumer recently wrote to Mark Hendricks, Technical Manager, Connecticut Valley Arms (CVA), 5988 Peachtree Corners East Norcross, GA 30071. The letter describes how a design defect nearly caused the death of this man's son-in-law. It reads, in part:

"My opinion as a graduate engineer is that CVA has a critical design defect, which should be corrected immediately, and should require a product recall. In addition to this problem, we discussed the rationale for specifying barrel strength, and I asked you what the strength of CVA muzzleloader barrels was. You would only tell me that the "minimum specification" was 700 kp/cm2. When I asked you what the maximum pressure spec was, you told me that no one knows, and that "ignorance is bliss". In other words, you could not tell me at what load pressure the barrel would burst. Is this the same attitude that I heard your customer service technician express when he said that the problem I reported had never occurred, therefore it was not possible?"

Jim Bruno, VP of Traditions Firearms, e-mailed me a while back, stating in part:

"Randy, Do you think that we would make a firearm that would not support charges that we advertise and market to the public of the United States of America? I know that you are evaluating and comparing muzzleloaders of different companies in the black powder industry and have done a pretty thorough job, but understand that every time you write or speak any negative comments about our industry you provide ammunition for the people who do not believe that the 2nd amendment exists."

Well, Jim, I'll answer you here and now. First of all, you are apparently unaware of what you are selling. You manufacture no muzzleloaders; you merely import them from a company in Spain. You have no known testing facilities of your own. You have been unable to show that your imported frontloaders are tested with the charges you recommend--charges that are not recommended by powder manufacturers.

It is a "red herring" argument to attempt to turn your lack of knowledge about your own product into a 2nd Amendment issue. The 2nd Amendment is not an entitlement for you to foist substandard product, built to unknown or non-existent standards, on the American consumer.

Terry L. Eby, BPI National Sales Manager / Retail, e-mails in part:

"Randy: I don't consider my language careless and I absolutely stand by my opinion that your position has no basis in fact--but much in conjecture and assumption. If your implication that we would knowingly put our customers at risk is not defamatory, I don't know what is."

Unfortuantely, Terry, the "basis in fact" will be presented to you in court, as your injured consumers have no other recourse. Your company, "BPI," is Spanish owned and operated and has no proper American testing facilities. Do you have any at all? The brands you peddle, CVA, Beartooth, and Winchester Muzzleloading still come from the very same factory that the sorely defective "CVA Apollo" came from, with the same steel, don't they?

This is the CVA Apollo gun that had so many personal injury claims filed against it that the "old CVA" was forced into receivership, is that not true? I have seen nothing to indicate that your sub-standard proofs and poor quality control is any better now than it was then.

If you don't believe the printed results from Lyman Ballistic Laboratories showing 25,000 PSI peak pressures in three pellet loads that you recommend in your manuals for use in your guns that bear a 10,000 PSI area House of Eibar definitive proof mark, you are welcome to take it up with them.

Hodgdon Powder Co. recommends that only two 50 grain equivalent Pyrodex or Triple Seven pellets MAXIMUM be used in .50 caliber inlines. You recommend three. By whose authority is this done? On what basis is this done?

The pity of all this is that proven safe, quality muzzleloaders have never been more plentiful, or more affordable. Knight Rifles, NEF / H & R, Thompson / Center Arms, and Austin & Halleck all currently offer exemplary inline muzzleloading rifles today that you won't be betting your life on.

The Savage 10ML-II is the best built frontloader of them all, using the Savage magnum centerfire barrel as a starting point. The affordable Knight Wolverine, proven for twenty years right now, is a shining example of how you can fly first class with a Green Mountain barrel for an economy ticket price.

The girl behind the counter at Wally World may be oblivious to all this, and apparently large retailers such as Bass Pro and Cabela's are as well. I've heard and seen enough of this nonsense to last me several lifetimes; I don't have the stomach for much more human blood.

Cheap, extruded barreled rifles should give anyone pause. Any propane tank for a gas grill is built to a better, uniform standard of testing for the application--at least your propane tank must pass hydro. And, this isn't just my opinion: you won't find muzzleloading legends like Doc White, Henry Ball, or Del Ramsey dissenting.

It is my considered opinion that muzzleloading rifles with soft, extruded barrels proofed to only 10,000 PSI are not fit to be used. I'd much rather dial in a Knight Wolverine than dial 911. Wouldn't anybody?

There is a huge, ever increasing body of evidence that shows CVA branded guns (BPI, CVA Winchester Muzzleloading, New Frontier, etc.) can be quite dangerous with factory recommended loads. Those that have their own personal injury issues can contact several sources for help. Here is one good one: Eaton & Sparks 1717 E. 15th Street Tulsa, OK 74104 Attn. Dean Wise Firearms use, in general, is a very safe sport, with firearms related injuries falling year after year. In fact, A new report from the National Safety Council shows that accidental firearm related fatalities remained at record lows in 2004. Statistics in the council’s “Injury Facts 2005-2006” show a 48 percent decrease over a 10-year period ending in 2004 (the latest year for which data is available). There are rare, very rare exceptions. CVA guns, deficient in design, materials, and quality control in my opinion, give the great sport of muzzleloading a bad name. To subsidize further injuries and fund the decay of the great American firearms manufacturers with your hard earned dollars by buying a dubious CVA gun is unnecessary and unconscionable
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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by FrontierGander » Fri May 22, 2009 8:33 pm

thats randy wakeman, hes anti cva/traditions. He fails to tell you that savage ( his beloved muzzleloader) had issues blowing up. CVA Had a issue with the breech plug back in 1995 and 1996 and those recalls are still out for warnings. Todays CVA is just as safe as any other muzzleloader out there. In fact the cva accura,optima elite,Apex the barrels are made from the exact same steel as their centerfire barrels. Email Mike Bellm and ask him for his professional view on the Bergara barrel. Ive chatted with him a few times and the guy is loaded with info. http://www.bellmtcs.com

Randy Wakeman is one of those guys that will easily scare a newbie shooter off but the seasoned guys just rolls their eyes and stick a finger down their throat. Go to his website and read the nice kiss butt letter he left for the savage president lol

TC And CVA are the leaders of muzzleloading. I actually think cva is going to give TC a real hard time with their quality rifles that cva is designing now.

But dont get so deep into that guys info, hes got another one of his goons with a website and half of the crap thats on it "legal" issues where peoples recall year 95-96 gun problems were thrown out of court or all charges against cva were dropped.

CVA is now owned by BPI since 1999? I believe and their quality is no different than TC.

I was shooting 120gr loose RS out of my Accura the other day and guess what..... Im here typing :))

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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by GUTPYLZ » Fri May 22, 2009 9:09 pm

I had figured that he was a Savage homer. I do like Savage and the accu-trigger and own the .204 Ruger and l love it. I guess I was leaning towards the T/C, just because I like the thought of using the same rifle in different calibers. They do make a good rifle. I find myself inclined to believe what you're saying and I appreciate you taking the time to inform me.
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"Waste Is Unjustified, And Especially The Waste Of Time.
One Must Live, Not Only Exist.
One Must Do, Not Merrily Be.
One Must Grow, Not Vegetate."
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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by FrontierGander » Fri May 22, 2009 9:28 pm

no problem, i hate seeing people mislead like that :thumb

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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by PLP » Thu May 28, 2009 5:25 pm

I finally stepped up to a T/C Omega a few years ago,and I really loved it.I have taken several deer,and hogs with it.Around Feb. of this year I found a T/C Triumph on clearance for $275 HAD to buy it.It's got a limbsaver recoil pad as well.The triumph is just as accurate,but that speed breech is awesome!!It breaks open like a single shot,and in less than 5 seconds I can have the breech plug out.I took a few hogs with it right after I got it,and it is flawless as well.I have been very impressed with the T/C muzzleloaders.

I'm using a 3-9x40 Nikon omega BDC scope,150gr pyrodex pellets,and a 250gr T/C shockwave(awesome performance on game)..

Just so you know I'm not just talking..Here some of the deer/hogs I have taken with my omega,and Triumph

Omega

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Even the wife got one with the omega

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Triumph

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GUTPYLZ
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Re: Buying A New Muzzleloader

Post by GUTPYLZ » Sun May 31, 2009 4:17 pm

Thanks for sharing your photo's. I'm looking forward to buying the T/C Encore Endeavor. I hear the Bergara barrels are excellent in exchange for other calibers. Looking forward to trying it out.

Here is the website and prices on change out barrels.
http://bergarabarrels.com/tc-rifle-barrels.html
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"Waste Is Unjustified, And Especially The Waste Of Time.
One Must Live, Not Only Exist.
One Must Do, Not Merrily Be.
One Must Grow, Not Vegetate."
SPENCER W. KIMBALL

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