Wisconsin to allow scopes on Muzzleloaders!

[Toby]

Why pre-1850? Most major muzzleloading makers continued to produce rifles well into the 1870s. Attached is an illustration of a circa 1870s Norman Brockway muzzleloading rifle, complete with scope and primer ignition. How about that now!

During the 1850s, scopes became a lot more common than some folks want to give credit. In my lifetime, I've owned three original circa 1845 to 1855 rifles (2 Billinghurst & 1 just marked "Cincinnatti, OH") that had period correct scopes on them. The two Billinghurst scopes were 12x...the other 6x magnification. I worked for Dixie Gun Works for 7 years, as their catalog editor, a gunsmith and antique gun buyer. During that period, we bought and sold easily more than a dozen muzzle-loaded rifles with period correct scopes on them, and the most common magnification was generally between 6x and 8x. (One was a wonderful late 1850s St. Louis "Dimick" .45 rifle with a mint fast twist bore...and an origianl circa 1855 Wm. Malcolm scope...which was 3x.) I also know one individual who collects scoped bullet muzzleloaders and early cartridge rifles. He has at least 20 circa 1840-1860 rifles, complete with scopes from that period, and more of those scopes are of 6x and greater magnification than lower magnification.

If it were up to me, I'd say "screw the scope restriction...use any power you want" - after all, a scope does not make any rifle shoot farther. It's simply a sighting aid, and allows for more precise shot placement.

But, it's not up to me to decide. However, it is my responsibility to the sport of muzzleloader hunting to continue to show the idiocy of prohibiting muzzleloader hunters from having the right to choose whether or not to use a scope. And the idiocy of arguments against scopes that claim allowing them would increase harvest to the point that permit numbers would be cut back...WITHOUT GIVING ANY CONSIDERATION TO HOW MANY DEER AND ELK ARE LOST BECAUSE HUNTERS CANNOT SEE OPEN SIGHTS WELL ENOUGH TO PLACE THEIR SHOTS.

Maybe it's time to take the CO DOW, OR DFW and WA DFW to court and force them to spend the money and time to conduct an honest wound loss survey. Rest assured, these professionals don't have a clue how much game is being wasted due to their scope and muzzleloader projectile restrictions.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER
HUNTING ASSOCIATION

[FrontierGander]

open sights dont lose game, Its people who come from shooting centerfire rifles and taking elk with 160-180gr bullets and then coming to muzzleloading and think a 245gr powerbelt with a magnum loads behind it is good medecine for an elk. They dont realise how small a 245gr pure lead bullet is in a 1/2" bore.

Im taking my brother in law hunting, muley/elk and he goes, set me up with a good fast bullet around 100 grains. I just about crapped my pants from laughing. I tell him if hes going after elk, we're going to be using a 348gr powerbelt and hes like. wwhhhhhy!! thats not needed dude! I shot a cow elk with my .270 and it was only 160 grains.

Thats what loses game, not open sights. but poor knowledge of muzzleloading,muzzleloading projectiles.

Ive lost 2 deer since i started muzzleloading in 2001. Each one of those was lost due to poor bullet performance from the 240gr tc maxiball. I barely got my third deer. Open sights was not to blame. Nor was shot placement. The bullet that did not penetrate/expand was the cause of the loss. When you shoot a deer through the lungs at 30 yards and the bullet fails to even make it to the other side of the hide and the deer runs well over 1/2 mile, its not a good bullet to use ( for me)

[Toby]

FrontierGander...

I've been hunting with a muzzleloader since 1964...and since 1972, during most of those years, I make an average of 6 or 7 hunts every fall...many of them "Muzzleloader Only" hunts, and often in a very prescribed area - like on a wildlife management area, or during a state park hunt to bring deer numbers down. And I've often shared those hunts with plenty of other muzzleloading hunters...so I have partaken in many tracking jobs. More than a fair share of which were due to an aging hunter, using an open sighted patched round ball rifle. And many, many times the game was never found.

Open sights in the hands of a hunter who cannot see them well contributes tremendously to the rate of wound loss. If you don't think so...why do you have sights on your rifle in the first place? Why not just screw a shotgun bead into the barrel at the muzzle? It wouldn't be much different than forcing someone to use open sights even though they cannot see them clearly enough to use them.

There are a lot more places on a deer or elk where a hit results in a wounded animal than there are which insures a clean kill. Shot placement is extremely important...Do you not agree???

Face it, the vast majority of us are not the 20-something-year-young Natty Bumppo deer killing hero of James Fenimore Cooper's "The Deerslayer". More aptly, we're 50 to 60 year olds who need all the help we can get to keep on doing what we enjoy doing.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER
HUNTING ASSOCIATION

[ABert]

"WITHOUT GIVING ANY CONSIDERATION TO HOW MANY DEER AND ELK ARE LOST BECAUSE HUNTERS CANNOT SEE OPEN SIGHTS WELL ENOUGH TO PLACE THEIR SHOTS."

Quoting your own words, that is purely unethical.

And you have not replied to my situation of being "color disabled". Do you not want me to be on fair footing with everyone else? Or, perhaps, are you only concerned with your own "rights" and thus have taken up the cause to try and force states to change their regulations to suit your own personal needs yet claiming to do it for the "vast majority" of hunters?

[bigbuck92]

Alright alot of you guys have good points but ya gotta just simmer down a little bit alright.

[Toby]

ABert...

Have they developed eye glasses for your sight condition? What other steps have been made to accomodate or remedy your sight condition?

Scopes cannot alleviate all sight impairment...but they can counter the most common, such as the loss of close focus and the inability of the older eye to focus quickly at three different focal planes. That's the sight condition that will eventually affect nearly all of us, and as we grow older which will prevent us from being able to hunt any season that requires the use of open sights.

Me, I'm not ready to throw in the towel, even though I turn 60 next month...and I truly need the use of a riflescope in order to precisely place my shots. Yes, I have taken up the fight for my needs, since I have come to realize the problem that has affected aging hunters for some time.

It is a fact that the largest age class of hunters today is that segment that is over 40 years of age - the same age class that suffers most from age-related sight impairment. For any state wildlife agency to enforce regulations that prohibit this group from using a sight that allows them to participate during the muzzleloader seasons is a violation of anti-discrimination laws. And that's exactly what I'm working to get changed. Since August 2006, four states that banned the use of scopes during the muzzleloader seasons have come to that realization, and now permit the use of scopes during the muzzleloader seasons.

Only 11 state game departments still prohibit the use of scopes during these seasons, and it is only a matter of time before they will also have to change - if not driven by common sense to do so, perhaps by a U.S. District Court judge who is willing to uphold the anti-discrimination policies and laws of this country.

Toby Bridges
NORTH AMERICAN MUZZLELOADER
HUNTING ASSOCIATION

[sneekeepete]

Why don't all of the hunters who are unable to fire a Muzzleloader without a scope just hunt with their scoped Muzzle loader during the any weapons hunt? I really do beleive that states would be smarter making two different Muzzy hunts like I said before but since they don't and since some states keep Muzzy hunts primitive like it should be. Then what is the problem for the die hard Muzzle Loader hunters who can't fire without a scope using their souped up Muzzys on the any weapons hunt?

[Toby]

Sneekeepete...

That's kind of like asking why don't all muzzleloading hunters just hunt the "General Firearms Season"?

Forcing a hunter to hunt that season because he or she needs the use of a scope, instead of being allowed to hunt with other muzzleloading hunters during the muzzleloader season is just another form of discrimination or segregation. And we have laws in this country to prevent that.

You know, in 39 states the muzzleloading hunter can choose whether or not to use a scope on his or her muzzleloader...during the muzzleloader season. And in those states, none of the game departments have acknowledged the over-harvest or game-loss phobias suffered by the 11 state agencies which continue to deny muzzleloading hunters that right of choice.

In Kansas and Nebraska, where scopes were legalized last year, traditional muzzleloader hunters fought the change tooth and nail. But, common sense and the reality of conforming to Federal anti-discrimination laws pushed passage of allowing scopes during the muzzleloader seasons. Since, there hasn't been a peep out of those groups who opposed the regulation change. Several newspaper editors in each of those states that I know were flooded with e-mails and letters from opposing traditional shooters before the change to allow scopes...now they hear nothing. It's like it was never an issue. And game department officials have admitted they should have done it years earlier.

Toby Bridges

[sneekeepete]

I am not opposed to using optics on muzzle loaders though. Like I said in a previous post I just think that they should be limited to era equivelant gear. That includes bullets, scopes, powder not pellets, caps not 209 primers and so on.
That is what makes the primitive weapon hunts so great. The experience and the challenge. If someone is handicapped to the point that they cannot do this then of course give them what they need to participate in the hunt; but if people don't want the challenge that comes with a primitive weapon hunt then hunt then they should hunt the any weapon season. I am not discriminating against anyone here except for lazy unethical hunters.

[Toby]

Sneekeepete -

I'm sure that's you in the photo accompanying your posts. And that looks like a center-fire rifle laying up against that buck you're holding onto. And with a scope on that rifle.

How well do you think modern rifle hunters in your state would take to a regulation that only allowed the use of single-shot black powder cartridge rifles in calibers like .45-70, .50-90 and so forth...with open sights only? The reason: Modern flat shooting center-fire cartridge rifles and modern riflscopes make it too easy...detracting from the experience and challenge of hunting.

You know as well as I do, there would be a lot of tar and feathers flying at your wildlife agency headquarters...and a new crew in place in very short order.

Same with bowhunting...what if bowhunters were restricted to only traditional stick bows - no recurves or compounds...no aluminum or carbon arrows...no modern mechnanical broadheads...no whatever - just extremely traditional archery gear????

That wouldn't fly as well.

Some folks hunt with a muzzleloader for the challenge...some hunt for the experience...and some hunt for the opportunity.

Tht's the right of choice. Not everyone does things just like you or I do it, or for the same reasons.

Toby Bridges