Utah's Management Tags- Thoughts please (Paunsaugunt)

[MuleyMadness]

So here is my question...please chime in especially if you have any desire to have this tag or know the hunt unit.

Paunsaugunt Management Tags

1. Why do we have them?

2. What is there purpose?

3. The dates for the current hunt are in Nov. (basically the beginning of the rut correct?)
Hunt lasts only 5 days.

4. Why only 5 days? Why the dates?

5. Why not have an early (archery Management hunt) in August or September?
so 2 different dates.

6. Last question - what are your thoughts are the current state of the deer herd there?

lets hear your thoughts PLEASE!

[MuleyMadness]

Here is the DWR's reason for the tags...

Why a management buck deer hunt?
Removing excess bucks on the Paunsaugunt and Henry Mountains limited-entry units—while protecting the larger bucks in the herds—is the goal of the management buck deer hunt.
These two units have high buck-to-doe ratios. Harvesting smaller-antlered bucks will preserve trophy-class bucks and provide more room for does. Having more does in the herds will result in more fawns being born. Having more fawns will help ensure that these herds remain strong and healthy into the future.

you agree?

[a_bow_nut]

I don't know the Paunsaugunt unit at all other than where it is so I can't really comment on how it will affect it.

Personaly I think that if this hunt is managed properly it could help out any limited entry unit be it deer or elk.

By having this hunt they are looking to pull out some of the bucks that may not have the trophy that they are looking for that area.

Why a management buck deer hunt?
Removing excess bucks on the Paunsaugunt and Henry Mountains limited-entry units—while protecting the larger bucks in the herds—is the goal of the management buck deer hunt.
These two units have high buck-to-doe ratios. Harvesting smaller-antlered bucks will preserve trophy-class bucks and provide more room for does. Having more does in the herds will result in more fawns being born. Having more fawns will help ensure that these herds remain strong and healthy into the future.

you agree?

As I read through their reasoning behind this hunt they explain that they want people to harvest mature bucks with smaller racks not just a small racked deer just to thin out the bucks. Case in point while we were down on the Henry's filling my friends buck tag we saw a massive buck that is pushing thirty inches wide but is only a three point. We could tell from the sway in his back and roman nose that he is a older buck. So this means one of two things either he is so old that he is on his way down or all he will ever be is a big old three point for the rest of his life. Under their managment they would like this buck removed to make room for something that may have more potental. So yes I do agree with it.

I think that they have the dates for the hunt during the rut so that the hunters have a good chance to see these older and wiser deer when they are out chasing the does and there is a better chance at harvesting them. I also think that that is the reason that the hunt only lasts five days to get people in and done without putting more pressure on the herds that they have to.

I hope that these managment hunts are a preemptive strike on these units so that they don't end up like the Bookcliffs unit. When they opened that unit back up to hunting everything was great but with years of trophy bucks being harvested and only the smaller deer left to breed in my opinion the quality of the deer herd has been slowly dropping and now I feel that they just manage this unit for a higher number of permits for barely above average deer. Which is fine but I think that a managment hunt out there also could help their trophy quality in time.

The biggest thing is to get the hunters to harvest mature deer that don't live up to quality of the unit. If people just go shoot the fist deer that meets the letter of the law then the managment hunts won't be very effective.

All of the above statement is 100% my opinion for what it's worth.

[firefighterbraun]

I must say that I agree with a_bow_nut on this. If it's done right and the people who have the tags exercise some control and go after the older bucks then I think it would help out. I've never been down on the Paunsaugunt hunting so I don't know what the deer herd is like but the concept seems good.

[swbuckmaster]

Ok im going to chime in here.
I was sitting in the room of one of the muledeer comity meetings when they addressed this very issue. I was not on the muledeer comity nor did I give any input!

This is what was said.
Anise said the problem on the pans is there are actually too many deer. The forage is in poor condition because of the 10+ year drought that has been going on down there. He said you will see deer in poor body shape compared to other areas and this is one of the main reasons for the poor antler growth you are experiencing on that mountain. NOW before anyone else wants to tell me or anyone else that you have had two wet winters and wet springs. I will say it takes way more then a couple of winters or wet springs to bring back the forage when it has been almost destroyed.

Management hunts are not going to do anything to the deer herds to help out with the quality of the herds in the future!

WHY it works on ranches? So why wont it work on huge public property?

The reason is on ranches you can tag the does ears and cull the crap does, since does are half the equation of the problem with genetically inferior bucks on a huge public piece of ground you cannot control the does. Also if a younger buck is doing the breeding how do you know whats its genetic potential is until its grown. So a young buck could end up producing future monster buck fawns.

The reason the division doesn't want archery hunts for management tags is: a rifle or a muzzle loader is a way better tool to get rid of animals you don't want with dang near 100% success on a rut hunt. So if the division wants a certain number of deer killed they will get just that.

When the forage base increases on the public land down there you will see the horn growth improve. Just like it already has with the wet springs and wet winters. It takes time!

The management tags will cull some of the less desirable bucks and move people through the point system. So it is a good thing.

It is also good for proper herd management by getting more deer off the winter range where most of the forage problem is. This allows the deer to remain on the winter range to come off the winter range in better shape and gives them a head start on the antler growing season. So it is also a good thing

Deer will always replace muscle/fat before they replace horns!

So that's it in a nut shell. I know I explained it poorly.

fire away Brett you know the unit better then I all I can do is go by hearsay and the facts presented by Anise!

[MuleyMadness]

Guess I could have given my thoughts first, but will in time.

a_bow_nut

Where did you read this this?

they want people to harvest mature bucks with smaller racks not just a small racked deer just to thin out the bucks.

The way I read it, is they just want to eliminate excess bucks. That's basically it or the main reason just to many bucks and they want the numbers of bucks down.

I think the Pauns. is in a bit of trouble, maybe not as bad as it was a few years back but I don't see a lot or ton of difference myself. The unit has been hunted for trophy class bucks for YEARS now and all the big bucks targeted. I'm afraid it's turning into exactly what a_bow_nut talked about...a Bookcliffs type hunt. I'd sure like to see some bigger/older mature monsters than there is.

What I see is a lot of crab-clawed, poor genetics, cactus/strange bucks, 3x3, 3x4, but kinda weak scoring, not the best looking bucks. (not the type of deer people want or are shooting). YES there is still some good genetics and some great bucks. But trust me I've been watching the PAUNS my entire life and taken photos and video EVERY summer for years now. Proof is in mine and others pics. I'll post some pics of what I'm talking about later.

I'd like us to remove excess bucks if necessary, no problem as the DWR stated is the reason...but I'd also like us to remove some poor "management" or genetic type deer to help and let the better bucks breed the does. I know it's not all about the best or biggest buck breeding does, the does genetics matter also...but it certainly helps and makes a difference IMO.

More later...

JDH (member) and other Kanab, Alton, Glendale, Mt. Carmel, Hatch, Tropic, Bryce, etc. residents. PLEASE chime in we need your input and comments.

What say ye? What is the current status of the PAUNS. What do you see and why?

Not complaining just trying to make a difference and make this better/improve if that's possible.

Thanks for both comments above, keep em coming.

[MuleyMadness]

swbuckmaster,

Great post, thanks! I'll reply later...have to run now but that's the exact type of reply and discussion we need. THANKS!

[a_bow_nut]

I read about that information on the managment buck orientation course that they have online.

http://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/manage ... onInfo.pdf

They go into depth on the type of bucks that they would like to see harvested.

They even have contact information for people if they feel that they need help with this hunt.

It's nice to see the division making an effort on this hunt to infom people unlike hunts from the past where they just put up antler restrictions and left it at that. I hope that one day that they can start working on the elk hunts the same fasion. I think that we are starting to see the same problems with some of the elk units also.

swbuckmaster,

I agree with the managment of does but on public land like this it would be very hard to do but with managing the bucks over time the genes will make it over to the does also and will naturaly start to weed out the bad genes in them also. It will take a long time though.

[camodup]

Having hunted the Pauns... Twice... I can agree with a_bow_nut on this one. Theres some rad genetics there growing huge muleys, but at the same time some goofy genetics grow muleys that dont ever go past a 2 or a 3 point.

For instance, my dad had a tag 3 years ago, we saw tons of bucks that had that old looking body to them, but they were 2 points that would go 30+ inches wide.. you dont see that every day. 2 Years ago i hunted it again with my buddy. Came down to the last day of the hunt, and since he wanted to shoot the new state record (in his dreams) it came down to a half hour before sunday, last day of his hunt... No big bucks, so he smoked a 3 point, that went 32 inches wide and 8 years old....

That right there convinced me!

[MuleyMadness]

camodup,

Lets see your buddies 3-point please, I watched a big 3 that disappeared 2 years ago and that age sounds about right. I know it's a long shot but...